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Gratuities - what does everyone charge?

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    #61
    Originally posted by Neil Down, Southampton View Post
    Having put forward your original ideas don't you consider that this suggestion could be described as unfair?

    Let's go with your original thoughts and try to get the system changed and then do what you suggest in your later comment, don't do it until it has been changed though.

    the continual dripping of comments saying here in the UK we do not like this way of doing things is being taken into account by the powers that be and change could be imminent. So keep objecting to it but remember that by not paying you are depriving some of their just dues. Regards. ....Neil
    Do you not think that, by paying the automatic tip, you are telling 'the powers that be' that it's OK, we'll pay so you don't have to change anything?
    My view is that those who withhold automatic payments are the ones who are telling to company that things have to change or, indeed, that they have changed.
    It is my view that we the passengers shouldn't be happy that we benefit from low wages but nor should we be obliged to supplement them with tips. Tips are to show gratitude (hence gratuity) for better than average service, not as a matter of course and to be expected. In the business world bonuses are paid to those workers who try harder and/or do a better job, not for every and anyone. When I was working I was paid an wage for a 34 hr week. If I hit targets the more I was paid, the higher the target hit the more I received. It was in my interest to try harder because I was paid more. I could have just turned up, do the minimum work and receive the minimum pay. Tips should be an incentive to 'go that extra mile'. If you know you were getting them anyway, why bother? My father, a very very long time ago, worked what was known as ,piece work, in a factory. The more he did the more he was paid. Each job had a rate, if he did more than the guy next to him he was paid more.
    We have a double edged sword here. Some are happy to have poor service and a less than perfect cruise so long as it is cheap (Ryanair is a 'good(sic)' example!), others, like me, would rather pay up front for a better service.
    I don't withhold tips because I am tight. Although I haven't bothered to work it out there is a good chance I actually pay out more but to fewer.

    Ray
    Last edited by Staffsman, Cannock; 14th October 2009, 09:51 AM.

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by Neil Down, Southampton View Post
      You have just presented a very good and succinct case for the proposition that many of us have been putting forward for years:
      Cruise lines pay their staff fair and reasonable wages and the price of a cruise should be adjusted to allow for that. Then if we wish to give a little something to somebody who has made an impression, gone out of their way or has provided a service which was better than we expected, we can TIP that person and that small gratuity would be given with the true meaning of the word, not as a cruise line preferred carrot.
      We don't expect the current situation to exist anywhere in our normal lives why should we suddenly be expected to accept it at sea? Cruise lines should be made to come into the modern world, leave their medieval practices behind and the self-opinionated bean counters be told to mend their ways. .......Neil
      Hi Neil,
      I agree entirely with your sentiment but I'm not sure that you propose the correct way to go about it. You have said that we should continue to complain about the system (vociferously as possible) and hope that it gradually changes their point of view. It does seem to be having some sort of effect but I'm not sure how much.

      There is, of course, the other view put forward that withdrawing from the auto tip system gives a stronger message. I know that there are arguments against this because some people may be doing it simply to save money (I'm sure some are) and that the tips may not be distributed fairly (I'm sure that some cruise lines have a way of coping with this).

      Some people on here say that those cruisers that do not wish to go with the current system should only travel on 'tips inclusive' lines but the majority of these are outside of the pocket of a lot of cruisers, so it is not a very practical solution.

      I am fortunate enough to have been able to travel on a lot of tips inclusive lines so have rarely been faced with, what I think is, a flawed system that needs changing. I have worked on the ships myself and also spent the rest of my working life in a profession that relies greatly on tips, so do have an inside knowledge of the system.

      Last year I decided to try a different method when I travelled on a line that has an auto tip system. Having found out from my cabin steward that there is a list that shows all staff what proportion of the tips each person receives I asked for, and obtained, a copy of that list. I 'bribed' my steward to get me a copy and then went to the Chief Customer Service Officer and asked for a copy of the list. She was a bit surprised that I knew about it but did give me a copy - after a bit of pressure.

      I then withdrew from the auto system and at the end of the cruise distributed approx 150% of the auto total to the recipients of my choice - which included the behind the scenes staff. The members of staff that I had direct contact with received their tips directly. The tips for the behind the scenes staff was put in labelled envelopes and given to the Chief Customer Services Officer. There were certain areas of the ship that I did not use or did not want tips to go to and I specified these. I also asked her to pass on to her bosses that I felt that the auto system was not the way to go for the UK market - and wrote to their head office saying so. I received a polite 'Thank you, we have noted your comments' and nothing else.

      This may seem overcomplicated (and may be impossible on some lines) but I wished to make a positive objection to the system.

      My apologies to any of you who think that this may not be a practical way to show my objection to the system. There is, of course, the possiblity that my way might help to perpetuate the current system but I'm sure I can think of ways to make my point in a more positive way. :D
      Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. ;)

      Comment


        #63
        Brilliant but

        Originally posted by Castle, Sawbridgeworth View Post
        Hi Neil,
        I agree entirely with your sentiment but I'm not sure that you propose the correct way to go about it. You have said that we should continue to complain about the system (vociferously as possible) and hope that it gradually changes their point of view. It does seem to be having some sort of effect but I'm not sure how much.

        There is, of course, the other view put forward that withdrawing from the auto tip system gives a stronger message. I know that there are arguments against this because some people may be doing it simply to save money (I'm sure some are) and that the tips may not be distributed fairly (I'm sure that some cruise lines have a way of coping with this).

        Some people on here say that those cruisers that do not wish to go with the current system should only travel on 'tips inclusive' lines but the majority of these are outside of the pocket of a lot of cruisers, so it is not a very practical solution.

        I am fortunate enough to have been able to travel on a lot of tips inclusive lines so have rarely been faced with, what I think is, a flawed system that needs changing. I have worked on the ships myself and also spent the rest of my working life in a profession that relies greatly on tips, so do have an inside knowledge of the system.

        Last year I decided to try a different method when I travelled on a line that has an auto tip system. Having found out from my cabin steward that there is a list that shows all staff what proportion of the tips each person receives I asked for, and obtained, a copy of that list. I 'bribed' my steward to get me a copy and then went to the Chief Customer Service Officer and asked for a copy of the list. She was a bit surprised that I knew about it but did give me a copy - after a bit of pressure.

        I then withdrew from the auto system and at the end of the cruise distributed approx 150% of the auto total to the recipients of my choice - which included the behind the scenes staff. The members of staff that I had direct contact with received their tips directly. The tips for the behind the scenes staff was put in labelled envelopes and given to the Chief Customer Services Officer. There were certain areas of the ship that I did not use or did not want tips to go to and I specified these. I also asked her to pass on to her bosses that I felt that the auto system was not the way to go for the UK market - and wrote to their head office saying so. I received a polite 'Thank you, we have noted your comments' and nothing else.

        This may seem overcomplicated (and may be impossible on some lines) but I wished to make a positive objection to the system.

        My apologies to any of you who think that this may not be a practical way to show my objection to the system. There is, of course, the possiblity that my way might help to perpetuate the current system but I'm sure I can think of ways to make my point in a more positive way. :D

        Comment


          #64
          Hi Neil, I have contributed many posts on this subject, in various threads & fully understand others points of view, & commend Castle of Sawbridgeworths 'protest'. I would like to follow suit, but as I do not have the relevant knowledge for Cunard, our next cruise, I can't.

          I will not remove the tips, because contrary to some posts on the many 'tipping threads' on this site, many of the crew who work so hard to make our holidays 'special' are still paid very poorly.

          Yes, to those who argue it's not my 'problem' & the Cruise lines 'should pay proper wages/salaries', I wholeheartedly agree, but until they do, we will not be removing our gratuities.

          However, we will 'walk away' or even challenge fellow passengers whingeing about it! It is their prerogative not to 'pay', but 'boasting' about it, it just so abhorrent to us!! It's an 'I got away with it attitude' that we just can't stand, nor can we stand the lines of people queuing to remove the tips!

          I just hope you are right Neil & things will eventually change. Because, in the meanwhile, I to am also fed up with subsiding the crews wages & almost feel this is a form of 'Blackmail' by the Cruise Companies on those of us who have a conscience.

          However, in another post on this site, it was said that only 5% of 'cruisers' read forums like this, so we may have a long wait for change!!

          Regards, Lizzie.
          Lizzie sigpic

          Comment


            #65
            Neil, I agree that my method is not really practical for most people. It is just that I am 'bloody minded' about things and don't like large organisations (or officialdom) to get the better of me. I consider it fun to find ways around things - alright, so I'm a bit nutty :D

            Off subject:- I once had a long fight with a power company who were pestering me for money I didn't owe them. They were totally ignored everything I did and said. So I sent them a bill for my time which, naturally, they ignored. I sent them a summons for the money, which they ignored, and I then applied to the courts for judgement. They finally paid up when I sent the bailiffs in to their head office and they stopped bothering me after that.

            Lizzie, I agree with your sentiment about it . I realise that it is not easy to get the information the way I did so you aren't able to do the same. I find it easy to talk to the ships staff as I used to be one of them and can usually get the info I want.

            I definitely would not queue to have the tips removed - a ploy used by the cruise companies to try and embarrass people. There are easy ways around it, although I admit I have never travelled on a ship that employs that reprehensible tactic.
            Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. ;)

            Comment


              #66
              I've just come across this quote on a website:-


              "Oceania to pay your gratuities
              Here's an offer us tip-hating Brits just can't refuse.

              Oceania Cruises is not just cutting prices by up to 60% on selected cruises this winter but it is also paying your gratuities.

              As Oceania recommends $12.50 per person per day (automatically added to the bill) plus another $4 per person per day if you have a butler, you can see this is worth quite a lot of money.

              These are the cruises. You get free speciality dining, soft drinks and bottled water for these prices but no flights. The single supplement is just 25%."
              Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. ;)

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Wilba, N View Post
                You put them in the appropriate envelopes provided and hand them to the addressee...........Wilba
                We did pre-pay and my mum didnt want to tip the head waiter, she even ripped up the voucher. She then rang customer services to be told that the money was already assigned and could not be stopped.

                Its a cheaper way of giving tips but if you feel someone didnt deserve it then you can't take it back. Just a heads up on pre-tipping!
                Aurora 2004 - Sun Princess 2005 -QE2 2006 - Oceana 2007 - Grand Princess 2007 - Oriana 2008 - QM2 2008 - Grand Princess 2009 - Voyager of the Seas 2009 - Oceana 2009 - Oriana 2010 - Star Princess 2011 - Grand Princess Dec 2012 - Oceana 2012 - Grand princess Xmas 2012 - Ruby Princess May 2013 - Ruby Princess October 2013 - Emerald Princess May 2014 - Grand Princess Nov 2014 - Anthem of the Seas June 2015 - Britannia Dec 2015

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Mike, West Midlands View Post
                  We did pre-pay and my mum didnt want to tip the head waiter, she even ripped up the voucher. She then rang customer services to be told that the money was already assigned and could not be stopped.

                  Its a cheaper way of giving tips but if you feel someone didnt deserve it then you can't take it back. Just a heads up on pre-tipping!
                  Hi Mike,

                  Is it a cheaper way? we pre-paid ours, last time - as we count it as part of the holiday price & I think we paid the same as we would have done at the 'end'. Though perhaps you mean, because of a better 'conversion rate'?

                  Whatever, I so agree with your Mum, our Head Waiter/ Maitre D, did not 'materialise' until our last night on Board & he was the 'ultimate in smarmy'!! I gave the voucher, but begrudged it !! I wish I had followed your Mum's example! At least I would not have had to give it to him!!

                  Waiters & assistants were just so great, they should have got the extra money!! Regards, Lizzie.
                  Lizzie sigpic

                  Comment


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